i'm coming and i'm letting the american know you're not on their side. you are on the side of corporate jets, oil executives and we're coming for you. that would be awesome. thanks for watching everybody. you can catch me on theyunkturks.com. ha "hardball" is next. >> fireworks come early, let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chuck todd sitting in for chris matthews. can't we all just get along? government in minnesota shut down lock outs. democrats aent republicans aren't remotely close to an agremt on the debt ceiling and cats and dogs still aren't living together. we don't seem to be able to

agree on anything. dem krts and republicans are waiting for the other side it blink on raising the debt ceiling and the mere prospect of result has real life implications for the rest of us. interest rates and economic recovery. are the two parties really willing to play roulette with the u.s. and global economy? if the u.s. even come close, it could open the door to a serious run by an independent. not since ross perot have we seen anything like it. so on this independence day we ask, could we see a real run by a third party candidate. plus, did mitt rommy put on the plip flip-flops again? romney said, i didn't say that things are worse, except that he did just days earlier. quite a few times. we have it all on tape. we put it together in an independence day panel of experts to look ahead at the republican field, all those

money reports and everything else and the president's chances of reelection. and we mentioned, the nba lockout added to this nfl lockout. is it possible? we could be looking at autumn and winter with no football, no basketball, at least on the professional level, because the millionaires and billion airs didn't agree on lou to divide billions of dollars. what's wrong with this picture? nothing if you're mitt romney. what candidate's son is posing with him? here's a hint. not romney's son but the son of another presidential candidate. we will have it all on the side show. we start on the state of the country. chairman of the dccc and democrat from new york. he joins me now. congressman israel, i want to talk about where we are in the debt talks. it seems to me i have talked to democrats who are involved in it. they say they got close to an agreement at about 1.5 trillion. there are reports that republicans are up to 2 trillion in cuts. the sticking point is these quote revenues or taxes.

what is the state of play as you understand it? you're a member of house leadership. >> well, chuck, first of all, let me tell that you there is something that a republican member of congress and this democratic member of congress can agree on. that is that a republican freshman from upstate new york today said that republicans are playing a dangerous game of chicken with the debt ceiling. that's something i agree with. let's understand what these republicanes have been doing. they want to end medicare. they just introduced a bill to privatize social security. they want to extend tax cuts for people make over a million dollars. they want to spend $40 billion in corporate welfare for oil companies and are willing to bring down this economy and increase people's credit card rates by not 13e7bd spending the debt ceiling in a way to achieve this. they are playing a game of chicken. the middle class will be victim and they need to do what john

boehner did when promise ped. >> congressman, there is a lot of he said-he said going on. chuck schumer speculated that republicans are trying to sabotage the economy just to see president obama fail. let's listen to it. >> we need to start asking ourselves an uncomfortable question. are republicans slowing down the economy on purpose for political gain in 2012? now it's becoming clear that insist og. a slash and burn approach may be part of this plan. snrs it has a double benefit for republicans. it is ideal logically tidy. and it undermines economic recovery which they think only helps them in 2012. if the public comes to believe that republicans are deliberately sabotaging the economy, it will back fire politically. >> that is a harsh charge.

that's a member of the democratic leadership arguably, second most powerful u.s. senator in the democratic controlled senate. do you agree with senator schumer there, congressman? >> well, look, the fact of the matter is that even a republican economist, john mccain's said that if the republicans do not come to the table and engage? a fair and balanced negotiation that extends the debt limit, in fair way, that increases revenues and decreases spending that we will be thrown back into recession. more people will lose their jobs. credit card rates will go up. . any progress we have made on the economy will be lost by the single act of republicans failing to negotiate in a fair and balanced way where the sacrifice is shared and not born by the middle class. all of a sudden one other thing -- all you have to do is look at eric cantor who quit on the economy. quit on the talks. refuse to negotiate.

he is the number two guy. chuck schumer may be number two in he is not rate. eric cantor is with the house of representatives. he not only quit on the talks, he quit on the economy. that tells me everything you need to know -- >> it doesn't sound like you are toward sign on with senator schumer's theory here that the republicans are deliberately trying to sabotage the economy. >> i am more interested in outcome than input. the outcome we need is what every small business and what every american who has to balance a budget goes through. we need to reduce debt. the way it do that is to decrease spending. democrats are willing to tighten our belts. we understand we need to do that. we have come up with a trillion in cuts. we need to ask big oil companies and people making over a million dollars to do their fair share by increasing revenues. >> let's talk about a short term deal. are you willing to vote for something that is iks to eight months, the trillion, trillion and a half cuts that have been agred to among the biden group

to raise the debt ceiling temporarily? can you sign on to something like that? >> chuck, i prefer ton. i wasn't elected to kick the can. the matter is, he can don't need to kick the can. everybody knows what needs to be done. tighten belts, those are the elements of a long term deal that will help our economy grow and prosper in the future. we have done it before. we could do it again. it would be nice it if we had republicans to noe republicans to negotiate in, in good faith. >> some cuts in medicare, i know you guys have been making a big deal about the 45th anniversary of medicare just past, are you going it sign on some t.o. something that has trends m n medicare as long as you don't feel it hits beneficiaries directly. >> we passed the affordable health care bill last year that has billions in efficiencies. i have said before, i'll say it

again, chuck, well strengthen medicare. we will improve medicare. we will reform medicare. ending medicare is off the table. we will not agree to it and we will not negotiate it. >> congressman israel, have a good weekend. >> big mets-yankees game. >> i always rooting for the national team. congressman, thanks. >> thank you. all right, joining me now, major garrett, chief congressional correspondent for the national journal. i want to quickly react it something that congressman israel said. doesn't want to kick the can down the road. sounds like a guy -- all right, if that's the deal, let's cut. here is a temporary deal. sometimes right new that is what smells like what's coming. >> yes. he would have said, i will vote against that. >> did not say that. >> he did not. that's what what he did say or didn't say matters. >> it is going to have to be up to the house republican

leadership to bring that to the floor. to agrees to short term resolution of this absent a huge deal. >> you know -- >> eric cantor told me this week. >> you have great column on this, people need to check this out. a great column about eric cantor. if we look at it in five pots here, the white house, senate republicans, house republicans, house democrats. they don't want to vote twice on a debt ceiling. >> they don't want to voes voet twice. the house republican majority now totaling 239 want this to be the moment of decision. that don't want a moment of indecision. they want this all of this, to come to head now. with the implications that come with it. the only way, chuck, i see a short term agreement passing is about f implied in that, i mean written almost in flood blood, that the short term is all spending cuts, no revenues. zero. and you agree preemtively that

second stage of negotiations will include tax reform and the president commits publicly to lower rates then you look at the other subsidies republicans are talking about. republicans might sign on to that but we are long, long way from any kind of deal like that. >> and the thing that i just never bought into is who the heck, i will fast forward seven months from now -- >> right, will have more political courage than now. >> right. we are in the middle of an election year. >> unless you figure out, believe as republicans might that the president may be more willing to lower rates because he is so desperate about the economy. that's one possible scenario. but i share your skepticism. >> we are in the middle, who has the leverage. on one hand, obama this week decided to do something he hasn't done in a while. >> call them out. >> call them out. that got under the skin of senate republicans. they fought back. everybody thinks they now have some leverage. >> right. >> who ultimately has -- >> not only leverage but

entrenched positions that must be defended. republicans leave with a slack economy, if they give in on tax increases their base, which isn't in love with them in the first place -- >> how fraj sill that? you were tell meg beforehand they are afraid of losing a hundred members if not careful. >> they lost 57 on the cr deal. >> house republicans. >> yes. house republicans. they have reasonable fears of losing up to a hundred to maybe 120. if you lose that many house republicans on the biggest domestic deal of the year, possibly this congress, that's a border line crisis. democrats similarly don't believe they can go anywhere further than where they have gone on spending cuts with no revenues. because if they do, their base will defect. when you've got 23 seats up in 2012 plus a president looking for reelection and a base walking way from you that's also crisis. >> i want to talk about the senate republican stuff. here is their response to president obama yesterday. let's take a listen. >> maybe if you just take a

valium and calm down and come down and talk to us, it might be helpful. >> it is the kind of language you might expect from the leader of a third world country, not the president of united states. >> he should be ashamed. i respect the office of president of the united states but i think the president has diminished that office and himself by giving the kind of campaign speeches that he gave yesterday. >> you know, major, i am sort of surprised they're all shocked. at the end of the day, there's been a lot of shots fired at the white house. a lot of shots fired at the president. questioning his leadership. it is only natural sometimes that the president will fight back. >> the president is about 48 or 49 in the polls. his economic numbers are more shallow but he is 47, 48, 49. congress is 17, 18, 19, 20. let's just do the basic math there. the president's press conference is about moving the needle of public opinion. beth sides are -- >> trying to reframe the debate.

>> exactly. whenever generally speaking the american public sees congress defending itself for inaction, they assume they are inactive. the president knows he has more to gain than to lose by striking this particular contrast with congress. now, it is also fair to say the president invited them into negotiations. they walked way but for seven or eight weeks they have been talking. >> i have people say to me, why is it -- they all watched the movie "dave" too much. basically saying, everyday, come on in, let's go. >> four hours. until that happens. which governor christie has done in new jersey. other press presidents have done. until we see that engagement, which we saw at the beginning, which told us that will t work. until we see that level of engage many we aren't moving anywhere. by the middle of the month, markets will price it. .

>> and they will do it early. >> they will do it early pup but we don't know what the psychology will do. >> by the way, we will see how big the tea party caucus really is. they say 83. we will see. great to have you on. thank you. even though you are a padres fan. with all this battling over the budget and debt ceiling there may be room for a third party candidate for president. is the opportunity for some independent candidate to get in the race like ross perot did back in the 90s? waiting for perot? st night elix. its gentle glycolic formula resurfaces at night for the smooth skin of a light chemical peel. sleep tight. regenerist, from olay. and replace your old mayo [ female announcer ] it's time to raise the bar with the full flavor of kraft mayo with olive oil. ♪ made with half the fat

and calories of hellmann's real mayo... ...kraft mayo with olive oil is the new standard in mayo. >> secretary geithner said he is staying on. bloomberg was the first to report that geithner was considering leavingpies hiss post after the president leaves congress with a debt ceiling.

last night, geithner said he is staying put. let's be honest. it would be tough for him to leave before the 2012 election, here is why. the obama administration would want to avoid a litigation, a treasury secretary, relitigated their entire economic policies just as the reelection campaign is getting under way. we will be right back. with bengay pain relief plus massage you can do this... get the ball, girl. hmmm, you can't do that. but you can do this. bengay pain relief + massage with penetrating nubs plus the powerful pain relief of bengay. love the nubs!

unhappy with washington, with the president, with the economy. could this anger fuel an actual third party independent candidacy come 2012? we saw it with ross perot. could it happen again? joining us, msnbc political analysts. good guys to have on this topic. let me start, look, the direction of the country. just 29% right now in our poll. we got the president approval rating on the economy upside down. way over 50% disapprove.

congress' job rating sitting in the teens. the idea the republicans brought change to congress, majority say, no. or the wrong type of change. it's all there. what's it going to take? >> there isn't any respective figure or institution on the landscape. you're right. i was out in minnesota at democratic event where they were charging themselves up for the big budget fight in minnesota and the election. i didn't hear anybody say anything particularly nice about barack obama. from the democratic side. they didn't -- attack him, of course, but didn't say anything. yeah, obama. the republican side, all they're doing is not paying attention to their own milk toast presidential candidates, just attacking the president as, you know, the center of all evil. so what's it going to take? it's going to take somebody with big ego and lots of money. in 1992, that was ross perot. >> he's little. >> yes. the only one who fits all of those descriptions now is the mayor of new york, michael

bloomberg. >> simply because he's short? >> no. >> he has billions. >> he has billions, the ego and the organizational gift, by the way. he built bloomberg just the way perot built perot systems and so forth. these are guy whose know how to build empires in business, who think, some of them, that they can build a temporary empire, which is what a presidential campaign is. bloomberg says he's not going to do it. >> angus king, one of the great names of american politics, on another show this morning, one that i'm very familiar with called "daily rundown." i asked him. he brought up a candidate. a potential candidate for an independent candidacy or third-party ticket. listen. >> i think it would be somebody, a guy named chuck hagel, for example, a republican senator from nebraska. >> endorsed obama, essentially. >> yeah, yeah, and she a trick

guy. i could see a guy like that and maybe a slightly disaffected democrat coming together and forming a team that could change american politics. >> this goes to this idea that, because the business community isn't very well thought of, frankly, these days, you're not going to get a businessman, a la perot or lee iacocca, warren buffett, probably too old to run for president. no other figure. a disaffected paul. that was his theory. >> who was that handsome guy interviewing angus? >> bring it on. there you go. >> chris, i thought he would mention chuck. when he said chuck i thought he was going to say, chuck todd. >> yeah, well. >> you bring up a good point. the wall street business tycoon type is going to wear a little less well after every -- you know, the bank bailout and everything we've seen with the

economy. a rich guy coming in spending a bunch of his own money because he's interested in office doesn't sell as well. hagel is an interesting idea. you know, the thing, howard touched on it. clearly disaffection. remember in 2010, chuck, people voted for republicans in cons but didn't like him. eve be though they disapproved. there is an idea out there, yes, we want something different. it's just the people underestimate how powerful the two parties are. there are minute things that matter and cost lots of money. getting on ballots in all the states. collecting signatures. that's why you need a rich guy, or gal. i just don't see anybody out there. i don't see -- yes, chuck hagel in theory on paper. put in the money, do the collecting. it's too much of a pain. >> sure. angus king talked a group called americans elect. another group four years trying to get on the ballot. if there is a group that says,

here you go. we got ballot access. there's a lot of politicians whose egos will say, well, if you -- if you build it, maybe i did come. >> i think that's true, and chris is right. that's the way it would work this time. i'm a little unclear how the new campaign laws and how the freedom to have super pacs and so forth to spend unlimitedly would allow big money people who if they didn't run on their own could help fund making sure one of those parties could get ballot access. when i first started in the '80s getting ballot access was nearly impossible. a lot of losses and -- it's now possible to do it. you need a lot of money and can do it and can get on in all 50 states. that would be the way it would have to happen. >> chris, one more poll, msnbc "wall street journal" 308. inconsistent. 31% believe the two-party system is so broken the country needs a third party. 52% say the system has problems but can still work well with improvements with a two-party

sill system. i guess the question is, when this happened, when perot rose up you saw the two parties response, and bill clinton suddenly became interested in fiscal issues. he hadn't been before that and you saw republicans suddenly start to talk about government and things like that's in this case, i don't see the two parties talking about trying to look like they're going to get something done and fix something. >> no. and you know, chuck, i think what you point to is -- it possible a third party candidate comes out who drives the discussion. look, there was in '92, i remember '92. a time when ross perot looked like he might win that thing. >> he won the message war. he actually did win the message war. >> he shaped the race. the question, is there a safer independent that can do that and does that person who gets it, if he or she does, are they okay with shaping a race and losing? >> and losing. >> that's the question. can you be influential and lose

and feel like that okay, because like you said. i do think the two parties would react and try to close you out almost immediately. able to fight back. >> howard, my theory, do that and obama gets more electoral votes. start doing the math. he could have 40%, all he needs to win. >> also -- also, the route for an independent candidate or third-party candidate seems to me, in this era of lockouts in sports and -- polarization. nobody dealing with anybody else, would be the messenger of sweet, reasonableness in the middle. >> the unity. >> the unity. barack obama stylistically, press conference notwithstanding, hard to outreasonable the president. >> and if romney's the nominee, romney likes to be that guy, too. >> exactly. >> the question is, where do you grow that was -- the bloomberg thing. wait. where do you go against barack obama?

where in the running -- >> that's why he didn't run. we could keep talking. always a response to speculate about third parties. up next, maybe sarah palin. really, is a mom a grizzly? what she demanded at a book signing, next in the "sideshow." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

back to the "sideshow." first up a two for one special. the minneapolis review reports at a wednesday book signing sarah palin fans were told they to also buy bristol's book to get the x governor's autograph. mama grizzly, you betcha. and a college-age son went to a campaign rally. the hitch, it was mitt romney's rally.

this priceless shot of him reaching over to pose with the candidate. the huntsman camp says, will simply wanted to see another campaign event. he meant nos did respect. to who? his dad or mitt romney? and hundreds of new state las go into effect. july 1st. some of the most noteworthy. in virginia, dead people can vote. starting today, if someone sends in an absentee ballots and then dies before election day that vote is still good. how about that? forget that, chicago. over in maryland, have trouble leaving your dogs? the news, dogs are now allowed in restaurants with outdoor patios and tables, provided they're on a leash. good luck with that. and annapolis, bring your own shoving. starting today in new york state, it's not mandatory for students -- they can opt out of dissecting frogs in biology. they can instead watch

interactive films. no dodgeball, can't get your hands dirty with a frog. you've got to learn what the guts of an animal look like. but whatever. you've got to do the real thing. up next, is mitt romney flip-flopping again? talking about president obama's handling of the economy, he now says he never said that things are worse. trouble is he did, and he did it a couple of times. we'll get to romney's latest walkback and the rest of the 2012 news with our independence day panel of experts, next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. discover customersl are getting five percent cashback bonus at the pump... and at many of the places their summer plans take them. it pays to switch, it pays to discover.

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>> i'm mi li ssa. here's what's happening. california's former first lady is just filed for divorce from arnold schwarzenegger in los angeles superior court. former imf chief dominique

straws released after there were concerns about his accuser. closing arguments are all that remain in the trial of casey anthony. the jury will take saturday off and begin deliberating sunday. a judge in kansas blocked a licensing law for abortion clinics to go into effect. 4th of jowl. be less than colorful. fireworks are banned this year all the way from florida to arizona. nike just resigned michael vick to a four-year endorsement deal. you'll remember he 21 months in prison four years ago after admitting to being involved in a dog fighting ring. back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." from tim pawlenty's spin on his home state's government shutdown to mitt romney's walkback on what the obama economy has done to the economy now. we've got the very latest. our special independence day panel. "the washington post" eugene robinson and richard wolff and "usa today" susan paige. hello to you all. i want to start with the minnesota government shutdown, because it does have potentially an affect on the president's field. a former governor of minnesota by the name of tim pawlenty, yes, still running for president. susan, let me play what he said about the shutdown and why he believes he has a good story to tell on the shutdown. >> both in '05 and now you had democrats demanding that we raise taxes and raise spending, and that's not what the people from this country need, it's not what our government finances need. we have to get government

spending under control. the democrats won't do it. i encourage the republicans to keep standing strong. >> well, they had a shortfall on pawlenty's watch. good or bad? >> it do go both ways. not to be worried about it, he a shutdown in 2005 and said he stood up for his principles. >> and got re-elected. >> then he got re-elected. on the other hand, he's like other governors, gimmicks to gets out of dodge before he had to face what minnesota is now in. so there is kind of both a defense on his part, but also some ways in which he'd be vulnerable. >> and he left a budget shortfall. he used -- those dreaded stimulus funds. that came into all of the states last -- to plug some holes, and one of his critics, a former governor, former republican governor said, if was nothing

but gimmicks and nerve der balancing there. >> it's goes to credibility. death by 1,000 cuts. >> he can't afford another flub. >> exactly. he's got that problem. he had the debate that was -- that was a disaster for him. fund-raising numbers that aren't so great. i mean, it's just -- not so great to be pawlenty. >> and another minnesota -- minnesota is pretty -- left and right. here's what michele bachmann said about this. she said i applaud minnesota republican legislators for standing up to reckless spending and higher taxes. hopefully they'll realize fiscal restraint is what is necessary to strengthen the minnesota economy and create jobs. >> doesn't have the right record, legislative record, yet her positioning is right for where the whole fight is playing out.

which is, if you want someone to stand up to the democrats, you don't go for pawlenty. the contrast makes it harder. he was initial branding, purple stay conservative. the guy to bring people together. fix the problem. be confident and here it's a mess and he's trying to pitch in on her turf, or perry or palin's turf, doesn't really square up. >> really tough for pawlenty. running for president, comes more scrutiny. play for you a sound bite. the therapist and things that he said about gay americans that is making the rounds on the internet and making people unhappy. what was said on a radio program last year, unearthed by some democratic roots. take a listen. >> we have to understand barbarians need to be educated. they need to be disciplined and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we

are supposed to go down that road. that's what's called the sinful nature, and we have a responsibility as parents and as authority figures not to encourage such thoughts and feelings to move into the action step. >> susan, that is the type of language that's going to make swing voters uncomfortable. they're not going to want to hear something like that. whether having the conversation about this idea of somehow as being gay is not -- is, you're not born gay. that is -- that is language that barbarians, that's rough language. >> we've seen a revolution in this country towards attitudes towards gay and lesbians, in the last couple of year, seismic shifts in people's attitudes towards gay marriage, employment discrimination, towards gays in the military. it makes swing voters nervous,

but swing republicans uncomfortable. >> and -- >> this is a terrible moment for this sort of thing to come out and if people just kind of think of that conversation taking place inside the bachmann household, for example, it's -- it's not good, and it's going to make a lot of people think twice. >> all right. we said that with success comes extra scrutiny. mitt romney had things to say about president obama and his policies, about the economy, and then he was asked about it this week. so here's what he had said about president obama and his policies, that he said had made the recession worse. >> when he took office the economy was in recession, and he made it worse. >> what this president has done has slowed the economy. he didn't create the recession, but he made it worse, and longer. >> the president's failed. he did not cause this recession, but he made it worse. >> all right. last night an nbc producer asked

if the economy was really worse than it was in 2009. this is what romney said. >> i didn't say the things are worse. what i said was, that the economy hasn't turned around. >> richard wolff, that didn't take long to put the sound bites together. i mean, now, look, the romney campaign says, no, no, no. he thought the question was about the stock market, and the stock market indicators. that's tough, back and forth. >> for those of us who had the great, good fortune and misfortune to covered john kerry campaign, this is flashback territory. spin it anyway you like, context may be reasonable, but the take is really hard to overcome and here's the problem, which is does he believe the sound bite or does he actually believe his economic judgment? and i suspect, really, he knows the recession ended, and that the president was there for a couple of months when the

economy was -- but really, we have the sound bite. >> susan page, remember the comment about afghanistan during the debate. it feels like it's almost as if we're going to find out, well, he misspoke. well, that's -- you know, right now, this is not hurting him too much but over time, this could accumulate. >> going right to a core vulnerability for mitt romney. all the flip-flops we saw last time around on social issue. he cannot afford to be someone as changing positions. if michele bachmann said something -- >> susan page, eugene robinson, richard wolff. we're coming back. you get to say something right after the break. i promise. this is "hardball." two segment analysts. only on msnbc. okies goodbye. new newtons fruit thins. real blueberries and blueberry brown sugar... crispy whole grain. newtons fruit thins, one unique cookie.

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the republican presidential field is adding yet another candidate. five-term michigan congressman thaddeus mccotter is getting into the race. he officially announced tomorrow he's a conservative but said the auto bailout was necessary, very critic of the mitt romney in recent weeks for being against the bailout. we'll see if he can catch fire. we'll be right back. at exxon and mobil, we engineer smart gasoline that works at the molecular level to help your engine run more smoothly by helping remove deposits and cleaning up intake valves. so when you fill up at an exxon or mobil station, you can rest assured we help your engine run more smoothly

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we are back with "the washington post" eugene and susan and we just showed you a bunch of republican candidates not having a good week. and not having a good month necessarily either for barack obama.

a pattern. noted since 2007. since announced for president, hi summers have been politically tough on him, whether not catching fire fast enough with supporter in '07. in '08, looking to be coronated. in '10, midterms. this time, they're trying to stop, stop the summer madness here. are they going to pull it off? >> afraid it's going to get worse with the whole debt crisis. debt ceiling. his best part of the summer is when he goes away. polls rise when they get out of the way and go away. it's true. >> there is a pattern. >> his own position has got to be that he's the adult in the room. yes, he came in pretty forcefully with that with a press conference. we're moving into election season.

the fact he's getting more confrontational and firing up his base is how he's got to go, but there's a cost to that. he's trying to get back and doesn't like it. >> he said that in the debate. it's the sound bite of that press conference, the one about malia and sasha. let's hear it again. >> malia and sasha generally finish their homework a day ahead of time. malia's 13. sasha's 10. and it is impressive. they don't wait until the night before. they're not pulling all-nighters. they're -- they're 13 and 10. you know -- congress can do the same thing. if you know you've got to do something, just do it. >> susan page, the president, here he is stinging you, but it didn't feel harsh at the time, but, boy, republicans took it harshly. >> it didn't feel harsh to you, maybe. >> in a sing-song way, very calm, all this stuff.

your kid the age they're going to be. you know that, susan. you know that. >> she's 12. >> you can't refer to her at as a 12-year-old. >> as a father, i get it. >> i do, too. >> did he make it harder to make a deal? >> he made it harder to make a deal but most importantly he does this deliberate. he got under their skin. he you know, needled them in a way that sounded to me deliberate and provocative and clearly appealing to the base, but i think he wanted to kind of shake things up a bit on the hill, and i think he did it. being reactive with a kind of

anger. >> they feel good right now. are they going it feel good about this in two weeks? >> if what it takes to get to a deal is not this sort of tongue lashing but the whiplashing of congress, no one's going to feel good. i think the concern inside the white house is this ends up looking like -- no one wants to do it. market tanked 700 points and then go, oh, hey, they were serious. wall street was serious. there are no winners. that's why you've got to apply the pressure now. nobody looks good. >> a nuclear bomb going off. happy independence day. your first one as an american citizen. congratulations. >> very proud of it. >> and we're proud of you, too. welcome to citizenship. very good. coming up, not just a public secretary sir having problems with unions and management. two sports, nba and nfl are also locked out. believe it or not, there's a trickle down effect from the government issues here. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

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welcomes back to "hardball." is it possible nba and nfl could be dark next season? the nba decided to do as the nfl and locked out players. nfl did it in march. high unemployment, the debt ceiling threatening the u.s. economy and now even our

entertainment portion of our lives is being taky away. bill wolff, executive producer of the "rachel maddow show." if you read the incredible history of espn. this man knows sports business. why he and i are going to rant about this five minutes. bill. >> yes. >> millionaires and billionaires. everybody's on the squeeze, but in this case, in both cases here we have owners who are suddenly panicked about their bottom lines and looking to take more money from the players. what's going on? >> seems to me it's just an opportunity, chuck. it's a little bit of shock. they come to an end of a selective bargaining agreement. so it's time to reset. there's some question about the troubles of the owners. i don't think anybody's 5b arguing nfl owners aren't profitable. maybe a little less than they used to be. while the nba is claiming that it's not profitable, there's a lot of reporting that says that's nonsense, too. they are profitable, just let

profitable. i think this is a case of ownership recognizing they have a chance to reset the paradigm for another three or four years with a new collective bargaining agreement setting them up in a better position and that's what's happening. they just see the next three or four years of business depends on what contract they sign now so they taking the hard line looking at the long term or the midterm bottom line. >> when it came to basketball, there used to be a way for owners to basically get cheap money. they would somehow convince a major state or city they were going to move unless they got a free arena. >> football, too. >> football did it as well. >> no question. >> and all of a sudden now, hello. city governments and state governments have woken up. they're not doing this anymore. owners that want new things have to build it. is that part of this? their way of finding free money and bank rolled by the federal state tax pacer and local and

state taxpayer is gone? >> i don't think that has to do with the announced problems of successful or stable teams. the boston celtics don't need a new arena. that's done. the pittsburgh steelers, financed about two-thirds by public financing. that's done. who it hurts is a team that wants to move to a new town and is using that as their source of profit. so the sacramento basketball team or minnesota vikings football team, they want to move to l.a. or name your town that doesn't have a team and they -- >> with the fat guys. >> yes, and they can't get an arena. it has a limited effect on teams which are unstable looking to get stable by fleecing the public -- don't get me started -- on publicly funded stadiums. the greatest waste of money in the history. >> we always say are things going in the right direction or the wrong track? we look at it through a political prism, i'm sorry.

look at this. nothing's on the right track. not even the sports world, and by the way, movies stink and tv's not the same anymore. >> chuck -- >> and i'm mad always at journalism. this has a psychological affect on the public. it's a big bummer. nfl football particularly. nfl football is a ritual. it is americana. sundays around the tv with your betty slip or your fancy team or whatever, that is, occupies a huge proportion of the population and if there's no football, it really will be a huge bummer. the nba -- the business of the nba i don't think benefits quite at much from the national obsession, but you're right. it's a total drag. i mean, in a right track/wrong track way of understanding things, it's the wrong track. it's a bummer. but the st. louis card nels swept the orioles in baltimore. so i'm on